Is there any proof that Jesus existed as an actual flesh and blood person outside of the Bible?
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Is There Any Proof of Jesus Other Than the Bible?
October 9, 2009 by defendtheword
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In the second film – all the ‘historical’ writers were bishops…
In addition, the other historical authors are known or suspected to have been re-writing history, in attempt to historicalise his existence.
I don’t buy into the explanations that are given by Christians that there is no record of Jesus because the records were burnt… OK so the records were burnt – all of the records? If all of the records were burnt why do we know so much about the Roman empire? Or were just the records about Jesus burnt?
Perhaps Jesus did exist – and perhaps he did perform miracles, but if I went around walking on water and curing people, turfing water into wine – I think there would be plenty of records of it kept somewhere… after all some pretty mundane records about ‘normal’ people and rulers are found… so why not Jesus… perhaps god erased all the records?
It is all a bit clutching at straws really… and the evidence that is provided, it is all pretty weak, if anything it proves that people were so keen to create a mythical figure to support their religion… a bit like an accountant cooking the books.
Christ is supposed to have been a Jew, and his disciples are said to have been Jewish fishermen. His language, and the language of his followers must, therefore, have been Aramaic–the popular language of Palestine in that age. But the Gospels are written in Greek–every one of them.
Are you having a laugh? Your statements are completely unsupported by any facts. You can’t simply make statements and pretend we have scholarly debate about the existence of Jesus. People would ridicule you unless you provide them with some decent rebuttal. On the issue of burning, we know Rome was burnt, we know the whole library went into flames, but there are other sources that you willingly ignore. We also know of the persecution that followed burning of Rome. Fact that you don’t believe is not my problem, that is your personal to you problem. As for the issue of Greek and Aramaic and New Testament note following. There are plenty of reasons to believe that Book of Hebrews and Gospel of Matthew were originally written in Aramaic but letter translated into Greek. After all Greek was the language that everyone used everywhere else. If you are going to be missionary and talk to others then what you need is naturally to speak and translate relevant texts into that language. Not that difficult to understand.
On translation it is very difficult to understand – Greek is a different language to Hebrew, and the countries where it is spoken are 1000s of miles apart. If the countries were next to each other it might be a plausible explanation.
As for the burning of Rome – so if the whole library was burnt – where does all of our other information come from? Was just the stuff on Jesus burnt? Was it all kept in Rome – do you know this? How do you know this?
A Christian said to me “but you believe dodos existed don’t you”.
Yes I do – because I can go to the natural history museum and see a stuffed one, and there are accounts from different people and different discoveries that are unrelated – this is evidence proof that the dodo existed.
But for one moment – put all this aside… and think about this story of Jesus for a while.
The history of the human race is at least 200,000 years old – so why did Jesus pop along only 2000 years ago – why were the people of Egypt celebrating gods a few thousands years before Christ was supposedly born – if god existed like the bible says he does, the people of Egypt wouldn’t have worshipped their gods – why did god wait all those years before he sent his son to save us from our sins?
And if we all descended from Adam and Eve, why the pyramids? Surely, the pyramids would be celebrating a single god, or Adam and Eve as the father and mother of the human race… but they do not.
And actually when you look at the material facts – the bible is translated – there are some scrolls in clay pots that are dated circa 150 BCE.
But the Egyptian pyramids pre-date these scrolls and are written in stone – so if you are going to believe in any god you should by your own standards be worshipping an Egyptian gods – because there is evidence (stories like in the bible) written in stone that exist in all their glory – that required the crafts and skills of thousands of people (witnesses as you would call them). So why not believe that religion instead… it seems to me to have a lot more evidence than Christianity has ever coughed up.
[“On translation it is very difficult to understand – Greek is a different language to Hebrew, and the countries where it is spoken are 1000s of miles apart. If the countries were next to each other it might be a plausible explanation.”]
Between Old Testament and New Testament Alexander the Grate conquered most of the area that we see reported in the New Testament. In the same way Romans built roads for us, Greeks made everyone learn Greek if they were going to do business with the rest of the empire. So you could argue that at the time Greek was like English today, i.e. everyone spoke the language.
[“As for the burning of Rome – so if the whole library was burnt – where does all of our other information come from? Was just the stuff on Jesus burnt? Was it all kept in Rome – do you know this? How do you know this?”]
No this is not what I said, only that there is a strong possibility that with the burning of the Rome and persecution of the Christians subsequently much of the evidence of Christianity would have been destroyed or put away. From your history lessons you will remember that first Christians did indeed meet in graveyards for the fear of being found out and killed.
[“A Christian said to me “but you believe dodos existed don’t you”. Yes I do – because I can go to the natural history museum and see a stuffed one, and there are accounts from different people and different discoveries that are unrelated – this is evidence proof that the dodo existed. But for one moment – put all this aside… and think about this story of Jesus for a while.”]
I’m not going to engage in this one as it does not concerns you and I here.
[“The history of the human race is at least 200,000 years old – so why did Jesus pop along only 2000 years ago – why were the people of Egypt celebrating gods a few thousands years before Christ was supposedly born – if god existed like the bible says he does, the people of Egypt wouldn’t have worshipped their gods – why did god wait all those years before he sent his son to save us from our sins?”]
Let me ask you this how do you know about the Human history, is it because someone told you about it? Of course the answer has to be yes, but here is the follow up question how do you decide which one to trust? Is it their credentials, for if it is then there are plenty with credential that will disagree with your assertion? Is it evidence that was dug up? Then how do you choose whose interpretation of that evidence are you going to choose? You can see where I’m going with this, all information and imparting of information is passed on to us, it is our critical thinking that helps us decide, but question that follows that one is are you aware how best to use your logic and critical thinking?
[“And if we all descended from Adam and Eve, why the pyramids? Surely, the pyramids would be celebrating a single god, or Adam and Eve as the father and mother of the human race… but they do not.”]
Well actually did you know that at there was a ruler of Egypt that did believe in a single God? Following is from Web page on Egypt;
“The reign of Amenhotep IV (“ay-MEHN-oh-taip”) threw Egypt into religious turmoil. He believed in a single god called Aten (‘`AH-ten”), who was represented by the disk of the sun. He changed his name to Akhenaten (“AHK-nah-ten”) and built a new capital city. This was a wonderful period for artists, architects, and poets, who were all given freedom to experiment. However, rivalry between Akhenaten and the priests of the old religion soon brought civil unrest to the country. Egypt’s domestic problems plus Akhenaten’s hatred of war in turn led to the loss of its Asian empire.”
http://www.egyptattraction.com/egypt-kingdom.html
[“And actually when you look at the material facts – the bible is translated – there are some scrolls in clay pots that are dated circa 150 BCE. But the Egyptian pyramids pre-date these scrolls and are written in stone – so if you are going to believe in any god you should by your own standards be worshipping an Egyptian gods – because there is evidence (stories like in the bible) written in stone that exist in all their glory – that required the crafts and skills of thousands of people (witnesses as you would call them). So why not believe that religion instead… it seems to me to have a lot more evidence than Christianity has ever coughed up.”]
Actually there are few issues you need to consider before you make such claims, between 1446 to 1250 BC Israel and Egypt share common history as Jews were there for some 300 years. Last part of that history Jews were treated as slaves. Two dates given are dependent on to whom you are talking to. But never the less you can see that we know stuff about Jews (Old Testament) lot earlier than what you are saying. Also Moses being educated in the Kings (Pharaoh) palace was well equipped to then record Jewish chronicles.
Incidentally creation story seams to be shared by many nations around world. And if you are to believe them then we indeed share same ancestry and that beginning then removes your obstacle that one nation emerged before the next and we should therefore worship their God. In other words if stories of our early human history are similar then there is the likelihood that all those civilisations may have also known same people at the beginning of the story telling process that started those stories.
Secondly, you do need to analyse what is being said, and based on that information you should hopefully be able to deduce who is copying whom. Many Stories in the Old Testament have also been verified through Historical studies and Archaeology, so I would not give up on my faith just yet.
Lastly if you are giving me a religion that is hard to challenge as there are no way of testing it i.e. like mythical stories that you will find in Ancient Egypt when you compare this with the Bible you can easily see which one sounds realistic and which one is just made up. Study of some ancient literature should help you with understanding this, CS Lewis was an expert in this subject and if you are going to take experts word then why not his, he made it known numerous times that Ancient Bible does not read and does not sound like any other ancient literature. So before we go on further with this can I suggest you look up some literature on the web and check them i.e. then compare these stories with the Bible.
Defend the word
“Lastly if you are giving me a religion that is hard to challenge as there are no way of testing it i.e. like mythical stories that you will find in Ancient Egypt when you compare this with the Bible you can easily see which one sounds realistic and which one is just made up. ”
The Egyptians are interesting – especially as their texts are older than the bible, and written in stone – which can be tested… If I was to bet that there was a god, I would believe in their religion – as it has the most proof.
So big fish that eat people (Job) and Unicorns doesn’t sound made up to you? How about people walking on water… or making a woman out of a rib of a man sounds pretty made up to me… no more believable than the Egyptian gods. As for a language or text not like any other – I think that when I see the Egyptian hieroglyphics – they look wonderful, nothing quite looks like them – must have taken them hours to do that… and lots of witnesses too – I reckon it might be probable by your reckoning that man couldn’t have possibly written those stones, or carried that great weight – impossible without diggers I would say – perhaps god helped them – afterall the pyramids are massive – god must have helped them…
You know what you are right – it depends on how you interpret stuff after all.
What I am really interested in is the Mesopotamian religions.
Mesopotamians believed that the world was a flat disc, surrounded by a huge, holed space, and above that, heaven. They also believed that water was everywhere, the top, bottom and sides, and that the universe was born from this enormous sea. (sounds like something out the bible doesn’t it).
Ancient Mesopotamians had ceremonies each month.
The theme of the rituals and festivals for each month is determined by six important factors:
The phase of the Moon (i.e. you mean they did easter and christmas too wow that’s amazing);
waxing Moon = abundance and growth;
waning Moon = decline, conservation, and festivals of the Underworld;
the phase of the annual agricultural cycle;
equinoxes and solstices of the solar year (here is the sun again – that pesky sun keeps rising over and over again doesn’t it);
the mythos of the City and its divine Patrons;
the success of the reigning Monarch (the king);
commemoration of specific historical events (founding, military victories, temple holidays, etc.) (sounds like romans and Hebrews a little – similar theme must be true???)
Primary gods and goddesses (holy spirit)
Coincidence – maybe, or maybe someone copied the idea?
By the way in geological terms the bible isn’t ancient!
[“The Egyptians are interesting – especially as their texts are older than the bible, and written in stone – which can be tested… If I was to bet that there was a god, I would believe in their religion – as it has the most proof.”]
What proof? Please stop just making things up, you don’t make yourself look good by ignoring facts. I think my previous answer on the origins of the same stories is taken out of context you really should read carefully.
[“So big fish that eat people (Job) and Unicorns doesn’t sound made up to you? How about people walking on water… or making a woman out of a rib of a man sounds pretty made up to me… no more believable than the Egyptian gods. As for a language or text not like any other – I think that when I see the Egyptian hieroglyphics – they look wonderful, nothing quite looks like them – must have taken them hours to do that… and lots of witnesses too – I reckon it might be probable by your reckoning that man couldn’t have possibly written those stones, or carried that great weight – impossible without diggers I would say – perhaps god helped them – afterall the pyramids are massive – god must have helped them…”]
First: Let me point out that nobody is talking about letters that make up words and sentences. What we are talking about is if the stories contain rebukes of the story heroes as you will find in the Bible. Secondly you grossly underestimate human intelligence and ingenuity by ridiculing complexity and probability of this being the work of humans. Lastly your view on miracles is related to your philosophical views not scientific influence. God could use physical laws to control the situation or use one law to overcome the other. Same as we in aviatics use force, speed and engineering to overcome gravity.
[“You know what you are right – it depends on how you interpret stuff after all. What I am really interested in is the Mesopotamian religions. Mesopotamians believed that the world was a flat disc, surrounded by a huge, holed space, and above that, heaven. They also believed that water was everywhere, the top, bottom and sides, and that the universe was born from this enormous sea. (sounds like something out the bible doesn’t it).”]
Actually you will not find anything of this kind in the Bible, Bible talks about water but this can easily be explained by vapour as you can deduce from the Genesis story.
[“Ancient Mesopotamians had ceremonies each month. The theme of the rituals and festivals for each month is determined by six important factors: The phase of the Moon (i.e. you mean they did easter and christmas too wow that’s amazing); waxing Moon = abundance and growth; waning Moon = decline, conservation, and festivals of the Underworld;”]
I hate to repeat this again so I will only refer you back to my previous answers and check the rebuttal on the Zeitgeist story I directed you to this previously you obviously didn’t bother to check that have you?
I don’t want to go into minute details here but we have covered this materialistic scientism before, we just will not agree. Despite the fact that no serious scientist even Richard Dawkins would not claim that Science has all the answers. So how come you are so confident, I can only conclude that it has to be faith on your part, so you choose to believe in one religion but refuse to consider the other.
[“the phase of the annual agricultural cycle; equinoxes and solstices of the solar year (here is the sun again – that pesky sun keeps rising over and over again doesn’t it); the mythos of the City and its divine Patrons; the success of the reigning Monarch (the king); commemoration of specific historical events (founding, military victories, temple holidays, etc.) (sounds like romans and Hebrews a little – similar theme must be true???) Primary gods and goddesses (holy spirit) Coincidence – maybe, or maybe someone copied the idea?”]
Let me just refer you to other material as you obviously are not going to take my word for it.
http://defendtheword.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/zeitgeist-challenge-exposes-acharya-s-and-zeitgeist/
And here is some more on this same blog.
http://defendtheword.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/zeitgeist-a-scholarly-response-to-the-movie/
I can’t go over same material again and again. Either bring new evidence or just re read the old one.
[“By the way in geological terms the bible isn’t ancient!”]
That is dependent on your world view, here is something you should think of, The Bible is much older than you and me. So if the age is anything to go by you should listen to it should you not according to your logic. Secondly in terms of eternity 200,000 years is nothing just as much as 3,500 years of Biblical history of Israel is nothing to you.
If the Bible is talking about the beginning then it can rightly claim that it holds understanding about where we come from. And that is what you should be concerned with.
Defend the word
Hi – I don’t comment on many sites but had to on yours. It’s fantastic! I really like how you write – very to the point. Thanks for having this site. I’ll bookmark it and visit regularly. I have a web site with daily Bible readings on it. Please bookmark it – it as at http://www.GotTB.com. God’s Peace!
Hi Sarah
Thanks for your support, I have bookmarked your web page and will like wise check it. What I find especially exciting about your blog is that it is full of scripture. Often we wonder of to left and right thinking that we have the answer and all along we find God has provided us so richly with his good book. Thanks very much and please keep it going it is easy to give up under the burden of everything else we may have to deal with in our lives.
May God bless you and your family and give you his peace and joy. In Christ Jesus
D
OK, and how do u explain the gap of 70 years between the historical Jesus and the bible Jesus.
It is quite amazing that NO other writers ever mention any of his miracles.
It`s not a problem of wether Jesus existed or not as a historical person, the question is whether he was really as it is described in the bible.
There are few things that you should consider here; we know that number of texts that Apostle Paul penned down in the New Testament are written around 60 AD, which is around 30 years after the resurrection or death of Christ. Secondly Gospel according to John which was recorded around 95 AD and you should remember that we are dealing with the eyewitness here. We have a partial manuscript which was discovered in 1920’s fragment that is from this Gospel (John) today this is displayed in Manchester UK.
Most scholars have dated this manuscript to around 125AD. Some have admittedly objected to this date and are reportedly split into two camps one suggesting 117 – 138 BC whilst others would like to stretch it further i.e. pre 100 AD to possibly 150 AD. If you take earlier date then you are dealing within couple of years of the original text and even if you stretch it to the maximum you still have 40 to 50 years from the original manuscript.
But note that this does not mean that we don’t have earlier manuscripts it just means that we don’t know of the earlier manuscripts. This study is still ongoing therefore I believe we will continue to find data that strengthens early writings. There were few others manuscripts but these have been disputed, as this is often not precise science.
However note that age of the manuscripts does not mean that the original was not written much closer to the original time. In fact many sceptical scholars speculate that there was original source called “Q” which would be within the time frame of life of Christ. Or Just after and that would mean that any objections are unjustifiable, note that we are not talking conservative Christian scholars here so no need to be sceptical on the contrary. Lastly if you doubt in the life of Christ, his teachings and deeds should you not doubt about other historical philosophers or characters like Plato and so on. Naturally you don’t, as it would be too risky for your reputation but yet it is OK to doubt the context of the book that is much closer to its time than any other ancient literature. This could appear to be double standards, but I guess you will have some other explanation for your doubt.
Defend the Word